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Political conversations Оценка: -----

#1 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 10 Февраль 2011 - 23:13

Maybe this is a good place to look at this debate about co-operation between the west and Russia in the war on terror http://www.idebate.o...php?topicID=182

I realise there is still some residual "frost" from the cold-war period between Russia and the west, with differences of opinion and frustration as regards certain matters, which the above article seeks to outline. My own opinion is that, soon, these sticking points in relations will fade into the background as we will all be forced to work more closely together to combat the terror threat to us all which is growing as the middle east destabilises even further and groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood threaten to seize more political power -
http://bigpeace.com/...he-third-reich/

There has already been co-operation and intelligence-sharing between our nations, despite frustration and differences of opinion as regards details of policy and tactics, and desire to know what each other is doing in this, that or the other area. As you probably know, under the Bush administration the public opinion of the US (and faith in our own leaders) here in western Europe hit an all-time low, but this seems to have come up somewhat since the Obama administration, and relations are better. Having said this, there are some who are unimpressed with Obama's seemingly soft stance on what is happening in Egypt, and there is fear that he just doesn't have the "teeth" to really get to grips with the war on terror, with some feeling that Russia's much more direct and realistic approach is the way to go (for example, Russians appear to be much more willing to place the blame for Islamic terrorism squarely where it actually lies - in the heart of Islamic teaching itself. Few in the west are willing to do this openly, and those who do face public disgrace, dismissal from govt posts etc.) How can we fight a war if we don't know (or refuse to acknowledge) who or what the enemy really is? For too long the west has bowed to political correctness and adopted a policy of blindness as regards the true source of the terror (which, as has been said previously, has been with us off and on for 1,400 years!) In the midst of this willful blindness, we've started wars of questionable benefit in both Iraq and Afghanistan, when all the while terror cells have been growing spreading (in some cases quite freely) their messages of hate to young British Muslims. There is now a scandal here in the UK since investigative journalists have discovered that some Islamic faith schools here are little more than indoctrination centres for future Jihadists. It's not without reason that we've been referred to as "Londonistan" by some - our past colonial-era derived policy of "look the other way as long as they're not attacking us" has reaped a bitter harvest for us, and we've had a steep learning curve in our fight against terrorists on our home soil! That Jihadists at one time were able to use "softy" Britain as a safe-haven from which to plot attacks on other countries is a well-known fact (I'm not revealing any state secrets here!) This is to our shame, as is our failure to grasp the lessons of the past and remember what the likes of Churchill told us years ago about the Islamic world and the threat it could pose to us.

However, a possibly beneficial spin-off of these more recent wars has been the gaining of combat experience against Jihadists by our troops which could be very useful in future should things escalate (which they probably will..) The experiences of Russian troops in fighting Jihadi urban guerillas in places like Chechnya have also been very useful to the western coalition forces, and few may know (but nevertheless it's true) that such as the US Marine corps were ordered by their commanders to read about Russian soldiers' experiences combating Chechen rebels in an urban environment before they stormed the city of Fallujah in Iraq, since they felt that the tactics used by Iraqi insurgents would be very similar to those of Chechens (which was probably true). Ultimately though (and this seems to be the opinion of many in countries with a lot of historical experience of bloody Jihad wars such as India), it's possible we are wasting our time sending our troops to defuse (and frequently get blown up by) roadside bombs in places like Afghanistan, and instead should learn the lessons of the past, leave those countries to whatever the hel sort of govt they want for themselves, and concentrate on homeland security and domestic counter-terrorism.

Personally, I'm torn between hating our foreign policy and thinking "maybe I'd have just gone and done the same things if I'd been in charge - geopolitical realities can pull leaders in all different directions after all..." I also think to myself that, if I was Russian, because of historical events, I might think it better to co-operate with the west only so far and keep a sensible distance. I'm hoping that we can all work together on this, and who knows, maybe we'll get thrust yet again into a world war where we all end up fighting on the same side again anyway (i'm thinking this more and more these days..)

I'm eager to know what you guys think - here in Britain we've been soft on domestic terrorists way too long whilst criticising the anti-terror tactics of others, and you guys have had some of the worst of it with horrors like Beslan and the latest airport bomb etc. India is in the grips of ongoing wars against Jihadists (which if you look at their history has claimed millions of lives of Hindus, Buddhists etc over the centuries - the figures are really shocking!) Pakistan is a weird mixture of Jihadist and also more secular Muslims whose govt, police and military have been accused of orchestrating terror and exporting it throughout the world, whilst they also have counter-terrorism people in the midst of that trying to stop this and fulfil the (possibly woefully naive) egalitarian dreams of their first leader Muhammed Ali Jinnah (personally I sometimes think we Brits should have never interfered by drawing that damn line on the map which partitioned India and created Pakistan in the first place - that it would become a haven for Jihadi nutcases could have been safely predicted perhaps..) My guess is that if WW3 is going to start anywhere, it will be in Pakistan, and some area or other (probably part of India) will get blown to pieces by a nuclear warhead set off by some crackpot who manages to get their hands on the controls (am I being too dramatic? I don't know..)

I'm rambling here and thinking out loud as I write this - is all this too sensitive? Are there too many unknowns? Do we have more common ground and goals than differences in all this? How can we, as Heathens/Pagans, realistically respond to all this, especially since we're likely considered by the Jihadists as the absolute scum of the earth fit only for the beheading knife (they probably think of us in the same category as Hindus, sub-Saharan Animists and Jews...Christians are considered little better, but I'm not sure they hate them quite as much as they hate Jews and Hindus.) Is there anything we can do beyond supporting our own counter-terrorism services and standing up for our faith-freedom? Could disenchanted Muslims perhaps see our faiths as more attractive alternatives, like a return to the ways of their own pre-Islamic ancestors or something like that? Can we or should we try and reach out to such people? Hel, I think I'd even be happy if they decided to convert to Christianity - at least those guys don't complain by blowing themselves up in public places if someone criticizes them...

For years I wanted to resist the conclusion that I've ended up coming to, that Islam is pretty much just flat-out a bad politico-religious ideology. Even as a kid I can remember geting bad feelings when I heard the word Islam, and this feeling has continued into adulthood, despite my attempts to shrug it off and try and see the good in the religion. The thing is though, it has the same theological and doctrinal problems in my mind as other Abrahamic faiths such as Christianity and Judaism, only it's a whole lot worse than either of them, because it mandates so much violence, cruelty and intolerance. At least Christianity and Judaism have managed to move with the times a bit (ie they've stopped stoning adulterers, burning heretics etc) Thankfully we Heathens and Pagans have also moved on and modernised, and in the main no longer perform such as gory blood sacrifices etc (some American Heathens have resurrected animal sacrifice though, which I personally think is unnecessary and bad for our public image). Can the Islamic world modernise too - is Islam even capable of modernising, or is it doomed to be perpetually a "faith of darkness" because of its core teachings? Could there be a reformation in Islam as there was in western Christianity?

I know I've probably asked far too many questions here, and might be exploring stuff people don't feel comfortable discussing - hey, just tell me to shut up or argue with me if I'm annoying you or saying stupid things in your opinion! :lol: :lol: I like to hear your point of view though - you seem to like to look things right in the eye in Russia - it's refreshing!

#2 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 11 Февраль 2011 - 17:29

I started a new topic with your permission, my friend. ;)

Topic is very interesting and I'm sure the questions will not go without consideration. So let me answer by points step by step and with order for release me quote and allocate.
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#3 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 12 Февраль 2011 - 01:00

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#4 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 12 Февраль 2011 - 02:59

Huh... I ought to quote :D

Okay, let's continue.
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#5 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 12 Февраль 2011 - 03:19

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#6 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 13 Февраль 2011 - 20:35

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#7 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 13 Февраль 2011 - 20:57

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#8 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 13 Февраль 2011 - 22:15

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#9 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 14 Февраль 2011 - 00:48

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#10 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 14 Февраль 2011 - 19:34

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#11 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 14 Февраль 2011 - 20:11

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#12 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 14 Февраль 2011 - 22:07

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#13 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 14 Февраль 2011 - 23:30

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#14 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 15 Февраль 2011 - 02:59

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#15 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 15 Февраль 2011 - 15:12

Просмотр сообщенияВолк Бусый (14 февраля 2011 - 23:59):

Yes, I'm was surprised too, but I often meet people in www of US domains who ask me am I drink Vodka on the Red Square or how long we (Russians) well hold out yet?


But can't you see that this distrust and mocking of Russia is exactly the same as your distrust and mockery of the US, borne of the same cold war paranoia, only in the opposite direction? These Americans (which I think are wrong btw!) are also likely coming out with the same sort of anti-Russian "look at what those guys are doing - there's the proof that they're still our enemies and want to destroy us!" as you are coming out with against the US! This is why I'd question the arguments of both sides - both are maybe still too paranoid about the other to really interpret what's happening on the ground clearly.


Цитата

Then those brave warriors of I-net often says that Russia always was land of fools and drunk idiots. I will visit USA and Canada not only for meet my friends there but meet those nice men for check how can they say this to me and my friends face to face. :lol:


My guess is that you'll meet mostly nice guys - I hope you don't meet one of the anti-Russian paranoid guys - I've met types like that online and argued with them about other stuff, and tend to disagree with things they say, so I don't trust them in their views on Russian either. I've come across ones who come out with crap like "Those Stalino-zionists are infiltratin' mah country! I'm takin' to the hills with mah guns!" (however these guys also believe all sorts of crap about the "New World Order" and stuff like that, so not many people take them seriously, thankfully!)


Цитата

Well, look. I see you trust in official UN and US point, and I understand everything is fine in this, cause it was made by clever man.



Woah there! I'm just looking at possibilities here, and am as in the dark as everyone else is. I don't have a solid line of thinking on this since there's so many variables and uncertainties. Hey, maybe we have been duped by a "clever man", but only time will tell if this is so - the truth always comes out in the end!


Цитата

I often try to get ready knowledge for I could be calm in my mind and think my government will do everything for me. But let you and me now take about this with logical approach: how long can alive man endure tortures? And what can he say under the pressing in his enemies' hands? If somebody someone connects human to the electricity at ~220V he soon will be broke. So Iraqi henchman of Saddam Hussein himself has admitted that WMDs were in Iraq, right? Very strange.



So where is the evidence that Obeidi was tortured into making such statements? He even wrote a book about his experiences living under Saddam's regime. I don't think he was exactly one of his "henchman", but a scientist Saddam probably threatened into working for him. Everyone knows that Saddam threatened to cut people's tongues out and murder their families if they didn't do what he said. Loads of Iraqi's have freely come forward and said this.

Цитата

And the main question is: what is US Army still doing in Iraq if Saddam is dead and all his friends or brothers are dead too?



For exactly the self same reasons that you guys are still in Chechnya even though the Chechen rebel leader was killed. The Coalition knows it can't just withdraw until the country's stable enough. If they leave too early it'll all just fall into civil war between Sunni's and Shi'ites, the public back home in the US and UK will just say "look at all the lives lost, and all for nothing - the place is in a worse state than before!" (which is what Russian public will say too about Chechnya, no?)


Цитата

Why do they build fortified military bases and place a strategic weapon? Why do USArmy reinforce the presence of its contingent?




The number of US troops in Iraq fell below 50,000 last August, and because the Iraqi govt can't afford to buy its own full compliment of military hardware etc yet and simultaneously also feed all its own people, it has to rely on outside help to ensure security. The US presence isn't being reinforced but gradually scaled down. Because the US budget deficit is so high (and so's ours), they just can't afford the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan any more.

Here's the latest from the Pentagon (from CBS News 14/2/11) "The 2012 budget request includes about $118 billion for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. That amount is substantially less than the 2011 request of about $160 billion, largely due to the ongoing withdrawal of forces from Iraq."




Цитата

So maybe we just ought to reconsider our actions, what do we do and why for?


Yes, you're likely right here! What have the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Chechnya cost us all, and what have they really achieved? Maybe we'd have been better off concentrating on homeland security, use of special forces etc instead. Because of the way the terrorists fight, maybe it's a job for covert operatives and not "open" war. Finding and stopping the funding trail and sending more secret services personnel to Pakistan and Saudi would likely have been much more fruitful. The more I read, the more I realise Indian hardliners are right to point the finger at their neighbours in Pakistan as a major source of all this, and in reality it's probably a lot of our own fault, because we drew the line on the damn map which created Pakistan in the first place!

The special point about the case of Afghanistan in particular is, if we hadn't gone in, chances are at some point Russia would have had to go in there again anyway. Your guys should stand up to NATO though in all these talks that are going on now ( they're courting you of course as a strategic partner) and make demands in return for any co-operation, so for instance Russian planes can go in to destroy the damn Afghan heroine poppy fields that are poisoning Russian youngsters! This would go a long way to improving east-west relations I think (a lot of western commentators think so anyway)...If NATO really is being sincere about wanting you guys as partners, it needs to prove it first, and maybe some mistrust can be laid to rest!

I'll continue in another post...

#16 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 15 Февраль 2011 - 15:56

Цитата

Ohh, time won't make you wait too long. Next targets are Iran and Syria after Iraq. :) Anyway if Syria has this scary WMDs, so where should they use it to? Israel? :D


I don't know if Syria has the money or expertise to put the components together really, but they certainly have the will. Israel, of course, would be their first target, but Syria would be flattened probably before the first missile hit - Israelis are armed to the teeth. Realistically I don't think the Syrians are going to be launching any attacks on anyone soon...


Цитата

But what have we to do so? Or let's talk about it in more exactly case - what's the public relations to Islamisation in Great Britain?


People are demonstrating and rioting in the streets because they want an end to Islamisation, and so does Cameron and other European leaders like Merkel and Sarkozy - they've all made declarations recently about the failure of multiculturalism and the need to reinforce our individual nations' traditional values and culture (which is what the public of these countries have long wanted). The French have been saying this sort of thing for many, many years really, and we should have listened to them sooner. Their old colonial policy of assimilation worked, and this is proven by the difference between the modern culture of their ex-colonies like Tunisia and other places. The people there are not quite so insane (I know they've been demonstrating lately, but I don't blame them for that really - the govt was indeed corrupt!)

Цитата

Yes, my dear friend, but I didn't tell you more facts. So where are US guns and heavy military equipments in Georgia from and why did Saakashvili had so often trips to USA for? I don't know where did Georgians bring black people from but all this theory about psycho theater of Saakashvili is a kidding. Look film "08.08.08" and maybe some facts will be interesting to you. Not everything in that conflict is so easy and simple.



There's caution in some NATO circles re Saakashvili - some claim he's far too unstable and crazy to trust as any kind of full NATO partner (of course everyone knows NATO's been courting Georgia as a potential ally too, probably way too hastily!) The thinking is that he'll just use any major NATO connection to attack Russia, which would cause a whole mess of diplomatic trouble (which has already happened in a way). See, some western thinkers will have thought (though they'd not say it publicly!) "those Georgian guys are Christians, they're sane enough to be on our side - we can swell our ranks!" not really appreciating their bad feeling toward Russia, which NATO is also trying to get agreements with. So they're going to have to play this one with a realistic, hard-nosed attitude in geo-political terms if they're to get it right and keep the peace. They're far better off leaving Georgia alone as part of your "backyard" (or "geopolitical sphere of influence" as they call it) and working on building trust with Russia instead. If NATO really is a genuine friend nowadays, they'll realise how important this is for global security. If they don't, and continue to court the likes of Saakashvili, there'll continue to be problems and mistrust. Time will tell...

Цитата

Do you think there is a new race in Georgia - the Negro race?



Nope - they'll have gotten these guys from somewhere outside Georgia probably.


Цитата

The American image of the US or NATO enemy is beneficial to the U.S. confrontation for the next war is always profitable, and of course it's not good for Russia and USA anyway because it was like in WWII, nobody wanted war but someone began it because simple provocation on the USSR/ReichIII borders.



But the US can't afford any more wars at present, so I don't know if I can fully go along with your thinking here. What hope of profit are they going to make out of a country that could flatten half their major cities in 5 minutes if they wanted to? I cannot see the sense in this. Americans are crazy yes, but they're not that crazy! I'm not denying that countries throughout history have caused wars to make money or steal resources - anyone who denies this would be a fool. But at present the loss/gain equation for the US is just not in their favour if they were to try and start a war with you right now. Even if the US and USSR have long fought wars with each other "by proxy" via smaller nations over the years, the countries' mutual nuclear arsenals have managed to keep the world safe for us all by acting as an ultimate deterrant to outright, open hostilities. This is as true now as it was before, so hopefully we're still safe...(says me deperately keeping my fingers crossed that I'm right here - we all want to sleep safe in our beds, no? :D )

Цитата

And don't forget common Georgian-American military exercise shortly before the war.
A former Georgian ambassador in Russia Erosi Kitsmarishvili: War in South Ossetia began with the Bush approval (on Russian)
http://izvestia.com/...article3122957/


I used an online translator for the page and got the main sense of the article - thanks for posting it! If the allegations of Bush's involvement are correct (and I think Bush just might have been crazy enough to do something stupid like that - i won't deny it!) this is another good reason why the whole world is better off since he's left office (I hope!). That guy really did not understand good foreign policy! (apparently he didn't even know the capital cities of some major countries, and had to ask his advisors! :rolleyes: He was also probably still stuck in the Nixon era cold war thinking, which is still true of some Republican-type Americans..) Apparently this whole Polish missile/anti-missile thing (can't recall all the details offhand - please forgive) was Bushes "thing" too, but last I read it had been shelved since Obama took office (? I could do with an update and clarification on that though.)

Цитата

I must explain to you that Marxism is a bit of real mad and different to true socialism without any foolish revolutions :rolleyes: USSR renounced Marxism when Stalin was yet.


Right - I'm understanding the difference now between different types of Socialism, thanks for the lesson here! :)


Цитата

He built his common ideology founded on his cult of person, this is different to socialism too but not like K.Marx liked to write in his mad books. The only his book I can accept like a real clever labor is "Capitalism", did you read about it?


I've only really seen quotes from the works of Marx and not read any of his books fully, and yes they sound a bit mad (well, it's usually the madder bits that get quoted over here, and not any wise observations he might have made! ;) ). See, lots of people in the west just lump all kinds of Socialism/Communism in together, and might not understand the differences between the different ones like Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism etc etc Maybe we need to be educated in all this, and look at the pros and cons of how they've all worked in practice. I'd like to know more about these differences.

#17 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 15 Февраль 2011 - 18:45

Цитата

But can't you see that this distrust and mocking of Russia is exactly the same as your distrust and mockery of the US, borne of the same cold war paranoia, only in the opposite direction? These Americans (which I think are wrong btw!) are also likely coming out with the same sort of anti-Russian "look at what those guys are doing - there's the proof that they're still our enemies and want to destroy us!" as you are coming out with against the US! This is why I'd question the arguments of both sides - both are maybe still too paranoid about the other to really interpret what's happening on the ground clearly.

The situation is more complicated. We did not impose our ideology in Korea, Vietnam or Iraq, when the Soviet Union was still alive. I repeat once again that our bases ain't located or building in other continents, our last base in Germany were disbanded after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Our contingent of peacekeepers in the quantity of troops present only in the Caucasus and the Middle East. No more. But the U.S. is building bases anywhere they can. They have their troops in Japan, Germany, the Middle East, Latin America. I doubt that they are building those bases for peace or beauty.

Цитата

So where is the evidence that Obeidi was tortured into making such statements? He even wrote a book about his experiences living under Saddam's regime. I don't think he was exactly one of his "henchman", but a scientist Saddam probably threatened into working for him. Everyone knows that Saddam threatened to cut people's tongues out and murder their families if they didn't do what he said. Loads of Iraqi's have freely come forward and said this.

The mere fact that the Americans have found some kind of scientist. I wonder why they are not told about plans to take over the world of Great Dark Lord Saddam Vaider)))

Цитата

For exactly the self same reasons that you guys are still in Chechnya even though the Chechen rebel leader was killed.

Oh, Aelfgifu, do not confuse Russia and the U.S. First, the Chechen rebel leader (Dokku Umarov for example one of others) still not dead, second Chechnya is part of Russia today. Our troops are now in the republic Chechnya within Russia. We did not any invade to foreign country for pumping oil out there.

Цитата

If they leave too early it'll all just fall into civil war between Sunni's and Shi'ites

It was always and everywhere in Islamic countries. Leave them alone, let them solve their problems themselves. ;) or we are not different with those who make Islamisation in Europe. The US contingent provokes constant conflicts.

Цитата

Here's the latest from the Pentagon (from CBS News 14/2/11) "The 2012 budget request includes about $118 billion for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. That amount is substantially less than the 2011 request of about $160 billion, largely due to the ongoing withdrawal of forces from Iraq."

It was better to spend these crazy astronomical sums for charity or fund rescue wildlife, but their spend all this money for bullets and firearms ...

Цитата

Your guys should stand up to NATO

That means NATO will build bases on the territory of Russia. This will never happen.

Цитата

This would go a long way to improving east-west relations I think (a lot of western commentators think so anyway)...If NATO really is being sincere about wanting you guys as partners, it needs to prove it first, and maybe some mistrust can be laid to rest!

I always want to believe it, but NATO was originally created for opposition the USSR. UN was created to fight against Nazism in Europe and NATO for the Soviet Union (not only). This is the origins of the Cold War. Anyway can you explain me why does NATO exist? Why for?

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People are demonstrating and rioting in the streets because they want an end to Islamisation

As we tell in Russia "One hundred years have not passed, but you already did it." it means that long overdue, very late. But I hope Britain will be Britain for a long time yet. I want to visit your Motherland ;)

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If they don't, and continue to court the likes of Saakashvili, there'll continue to be problems and mistrust. Time will tell...

I'm surprised why does Saaka is still alive, not why did NATO help him.
Bushes "thing" too, but last I read it had been shelved since Obama took office (? I could do with an update and clarification on that though.)
Like you said - time will tell.
Right - I'm understanding the difference now between different types of Socialism, thanks for the lesson here!
True socialism hasn't any cults of personality in within. So you should not divide the socialism of Marxism, Leninism, and other -isms. ;)

#18 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 15 Февраль 2011 - 20:45

I've just been reading more details about the history of the whole thing in Georgia, and it really provides a fine example of why rampant, unregulated Capitalism is basically an evil the world could well do without. When you look at the list of countries that have been selling arms to the Georgians, it is quite shocking, and the country appears to have been used by little countries all around it as a means to exact some sort of revenge on Russia for Stalin killing their grandparents or something, whilst the Israeli's probably would just love to have some sort of base there so they could launch counter-attacks on the Iranians, should they ever manage to build a bomb. So, the Caucasus has become like a theatre for all the world's various little interests, resentments and fears to be played out!

This despite even UN and EU observers admitting that Georgia has indeed performed acts to harm and provoke Russian peacekeepers, and has tried to hide things from international inspectors etc. It's not only the US who've been selling arms, but also the Ukrainians, Turks etc - the list is long! What I really found shocking was that even Russian arms dealers were still being allowed to sell military and dual-purpose hardware to the Georgians right up until the end of 2009, despite all the trouble that had gone on in 2008! :o An attempt by the Russian govt to finally see sense and try to impose an international arms embargo also failed, and so here we see again the forces of greed superceding the needs of countries to maintain peace along their borders! According to an article in the Washington Times last August, pretty much all arms sales to Georgia by the US have been suspended now (don't know how true that is), but some US hardliners think it's time to start selling them all sorts of fancy technical kit again, because for some reason, they still want to see Russia as some sort of threat (a threat to what? Their security or their ability to make $$$ out of parasitic little east European countries who want to have a go at the "Big Bear" while they think she's in a weak position? Saakashvili made this mistake only to realise that Russia wasn't as weak as she seemed, and the US weren't quite as interested as he'd hoped in talking all big and tough to Moscow any more...)

Some capitalists would just say that "Yes, we sold weapons to the Georgians, but we've enough big money deals with Russia in other areas to balance that all out and stay pals - it's just how the world works - you'll see!" I feel like tearing out my hair sometimes and thinking "what a weird bloody world we live in!!" Plus then I've been reading about all this really old stuff between Russia and the Japs over some islands, and then someone makes the comment that "those islands will likely all end up being bought out by Chinese and Korean investors anyway, so that'll settle all that!" And I think - WTF? So the world is just one big shopping street where anyone, wether they call themelves a capitalist or a communist, can buy anything and anyone else, and nobody really gives a crap?! It's all just the same old human history repeating itself, like the same old wine in a new bottle.

I'm reminded of the stories of the old days when kings would stand at the front of the arrayed battle lines and say "Look there men - over the hills beyond those enemy lines is land, booty, women! Follow me and win yourself glory!" Has much changed really? Were those "ancient savages" really any different from human beings now, or were they just more honest about their motives and didn't just dress them all up in fancy terms and clothes?

(As you can see I'm feeling a bit cynical today! :lol: )

#19 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 15 Февраль 2011 - 21:28

Yep, you knew most of the bitter truth in the world. It is a pity that people sometimes know turth too late. Perhaps this is the idea of our gods for our past sins - the Crusades, the renunciation of our Ancestors and etc. Sad, but this is the flip side of being, when two continents begin to quarrel among themselves. It's sad that one of the sides is expanding its influence in the world with a dirty dollar and other one side is dutifully signed the treaty on the weapons reduction. That's why I plead for the USSR revival.

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even Russian arms dealers were still being allowed to sell military and dual-purpose hardware to the Georgians right up until the end of 2009

Not arm-dealers but mafia. It always sells guns to Chechnya too and nobody can do anything with them because this mafia now has power in capitalism. Capitalism is a power of a capital, so when you got one hundred Euro and I have one thousand so I have more power then you and I can change your fate or buy police, or buy anything else for my life could be in Dolce Vita style. I want great villa and controlling stake of my big corporation and my money will give me all of these. I'll be happy, and I don't care about others who counting their last pounds in their dirty hands.
That's capitalism. I can't even imagine why did people in Europe and Russia accepted this after those bloody centuries when capitalism of Vatikan or Byzantium showed only dark sides of it? Maybe we're often timid and scaryable? I can't take a point about this. It's just a black age of the whole humanity.

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I'm reminded of the stories of the old days when kings would stand at the front of the arrayed battle lines and say "Look there men - over the hills beyond those enemy lines is land, booty, women! Follow me and win yourself glory!"

It was too long time ago and people forgot their heroes. Money forced them to forget their own parents.

Цитата

Were those "ancient savages" really any different from human beings now, or were they just more honest about their motives and didn't just dress them all up in fancy terms and clothes?

Customs and traditions changeable, but people had always been unchanged. They are greedy and vain in most of cases when the question is to have much money or many of friends. But only a beacon of truth, faith in Gods can give us hope to mend. Our Ancestors were wiser than us, they were able to get win in human's greed and vanity . You know, what should we do with our society? We must remove a malignant tumor in the body of our society.
Tumor is never treated, because it infects neighboring body cells. Therefore, the doctor removes the tumor, it's the only reasonable solution. Otherwise death shall come.

#20 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 15 Февраль 2011 - 21:40

Просмотр сообщенияВолк Бусый (15 февраля 2011 - 15:45):

The situation is more complicated. We did not impose our ideology in Korea, Vietnam or Iraq, when the Soviet Union was still alive. I repeat once again that our bases ain't located or building in other continents, our last base in Germany were disbanded after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Our contingent of peacekeepers in the quantity of troops present only in the Caucasus and the Middle East. No more. But the U.S. is building bases anywhere they can. They have their troops in Japan, Germany, the Middle East, Latin America. I doubt that they are building those bases for peace or beauty.


I'm just wondering how big powers like China and India fit in here - how do you see those fitting into the world scheme?

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The mere fact that the Americans have found some kind of scientist. I wonder why they are not told about plans to take over the world of Great Dark Lord Saddam Vaider)))


It may all have just been a hoax - how will we know? Can we just act and base beliefs on suppositons and allegations, just as the actual war in Iraq was only based on suppositions and allegations? In a way I'm not surprised people believe in different conspiracy theories, since unless we're actually privy to all those meetings around oval desks behind closed doors, we can never really know what's gone on and why! Events on the ground can be so complex and contradictory that seeing the true enemy is not always easy. Maybe it is just - human greed and ignorance (and maybe it's always been so..)

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Oh, Aelfgifu, do not confuse Russia and the U.S. First, the Chechen rebel leader (Dokku Umarov for example one of others) still not dead, second Chechnya is part of Russia today. Our troops are now in the republic Chechnya within Russia. We did not any invade to foreign country for pumping oil out there.


I know Umarov is still alive, but older leaders were killed, no? There are still terrorist leaders alive in Iraq as well, remember. To give you your due here though, it could indeed be argued that Russian forces have more right and reason to be in Chechnya than we have to be in Iraq, so "touche" to you good sir with that one! :D

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It was always and everywhere in Islamic countries. Leave them alone, let them solve their problems themselves. ;) or we are not different with those who make Islamisation in Europe.



Here again this is a good argument - stay out of what aren't our fights!

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The US contingent provokes constant conflicts.


It seems in many ways you're right, but you can also argue that Stalin left a legacy of problems for future generations of Russians too by his actions, and so this is why the opposite camp say things like "Russia's always been an Imperialist bully, even when they were Communist - you can't trust them!", and they use this to justify all sorts of stupid ideas against your people. Luckily Bush wasn't stupid enough to give the Poles the launch codes to those missiles, since apparently there were one or two in high places in the Polish govt with lurid dreams of reducing Moscow to a pile of ashes, even if it meant losing one of their own cities to the same fate! (I really hope this rumour's just a crass piece of sensationalism!)

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It was better to spend these crazy astronomical sums for charity or fund rescue wildlife, but their spend all this money for bullets and firearms ...


A good point - in an ideal world this would be what such vast sums would be spent on! ;) Maybe in the year 2330, if humans haven't all killed each other off, this is what will happen....(a nice dream isn't it! :D )


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That means NATO will build bases on the territory of Russia. This will never happen.


Maybe this would be a good way to test NATOs sincerity - ask them for concessions and see what the response is...

Цитата

I always want to believe it, but NATO was originally created for opposition the USSR. UN was created to fight against Nazism in Europe and NATO for the Soviet Union (not only). This is the origins of the Cold War. Anyway can you explain me why does NATO exist? Why for?


It's a good question! Some have speculated that it's just become a big selling tool via which arms dealers in various countries can make excuses to find new markets for arms sales, an idea that I don't think is without merit. See, the Pentagon and other countries' defense institutions make up all these "worst case scenarios", involving all sorts of motives of various countries to attack each other, and then arms dealers probably then start seeing dollar/pound/yen/whatever signs in their minds to sell arms to various frightened nations based on these lurid speculations. It's all just like the guys on the adverts on TV who try to convice us that we really, really need to buy this or the other product because we won't be complete without it. Only the very perceptive and astute can see through all these ploys, but they're probably also the ones trying to do the selling ("knowledge is power" and all that..)

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As we tell in Russia "One hundred years have not passed, but you already did it." it means that long overdue, very late. But I hope Britain will be Britain for a long time yet. I want to visit your Motherland ;)


I hope Britain will be Britain for a long time yet too, and that you get to visit here - it's still a great country despite its flaws! :D


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Right - I'm understanding the difference now between different types of Socialism, thanks for the lesson here!
True socialism hasn't any cults of personality in within. So you should not divide the socialism of Marxism, Leninism, and other -isms. ;)



I'm just using the terms for convenience, sorry - so how can we understand the different manifestations of socialist thinking? Is there only true kind, or is it a basic model with slight variations?

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