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Hello Everyone! Оценка: -----

#1 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 21 Декабрь 2010 - 12:25

Hi all, my name is Lara and I'm an Anglo-saxon Heathen from England. I am glad to have been directed here by Ulv in the German Eldaring Forum, and am really looking forward to getting to know everyone and learning more about Slavic Heathenry! :)

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Отправлено 21 Декабрь 2010 - 12:43

Hey, my friend! Greetings from our Union and from me!
We all crave knowledge about the culture of British pagans. It's really interesting for me too cause I was devoted to the mysteries of the Druids circle.
Make yourself like at home, Lara!

#3 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 21 Декабрь 2010 - 19:58

Просмотр сообщенияВолк Бусый (21 декабря 2010 - 09:43):

Hey, my friend! Greetings from our Union and from me!
We all crave knowledge about the culture of British pagans. It's really interesting for me too cause I was devoted to the mysteries of the Druids circle.
Make yourself like at home, Lara!


Thanks for the welcome Ulv! The Pagan scene here in the UK is quite diverse, with basically four main Traditions being practiced -
Wicca (perhaps the largest group, though I'm not sure of exact figures)
Druidism (I never thought that there'd be people in Russia interested in this til you told me of your attraction to it!)
Germanic Heathenism (Anglo-saxon, Norse)
Shamanism (often "pan-cultural" in style, but many seem to be inspired by Native American symbols etc)

I'm not aware of any significant numbers of Slavic Heathens here, but I suspect they do exist because we have a significant East European (Polish etc) community here too. If we can count in our large population of Hindus (though they tend not to class themselves as Pagans or join Pagan groups), then there are a significant number of people here who worship many gods or are animists of one kind or other. We tend not to have any problem with the Churches or anybody here, other than verbal expressions of disapproval. The mainstream media (such as the BBC) have lately been reporting on the Pagan scene in a much more balanced manner I'm pleased to say, with such as Radio programmes interviewing Heathen Police Officers etc (which happened just last saturday on BBC Radio 4's "Saturday Live").

How are things in Russia for Pagans?

#4 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 21 Декабрь 2010 - 20:15

Цитата

Wicca (perhaps the largest group, though I'm not sure of exact figures)
Druidism (I never thought that there'd be people in Russia interested in this til you told me of your attraction to it!)
Germanic Heathenism (Anglo-saxon, Norse)
Shamanism (often "pan-cultural" in style, but many seem to be inspired by Native American symbols etc)

How do you think what's the most "English" tradition in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Irish Republic? Cause this is historically, Normans, Vikings and Anglo-Saxon participated in the ethnic and cultural formation of UK. But I think there is something personal identity common to British spirit. I think it's Celtic culture. The Celts lived in the islands of Britain before the Roman and Viking invasions. Wicca and Druidism are representatives of this culture, aren't they? And what is the difference between Wicca and Druidism?

#5 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 21 Декабрь 2010 - 22:52

Просмотр сообщенияВолк Бусый (21 декабря 2010 - 17:15):

How do you think what's the most "English" tradition in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Irish Republic? Cause this is historically, Normans, Vikings and Anglo-Saxon participated in the ethnic and cultural formation of UK. But I think there is something personal identity common to British spirit. I think it's Celtic culture. The Celts lived in the islands of Britain before the Roman and Viking invasions.


You're quite right of course, the Celtic traditions are the oldest in most parts of these islands (maybe apart from the Pictish culture.) The Welsh IMO are the bearers of the pre-Roman, pre-English/Anglo-saxon cultural and linguistic legacy, though there are other Celtic cultural survivals to this day in places like Cornwall(which also retains its Celtic language though it is not commonly spoken these days.) The Anglo-saxons were here during Roman times as soldiers serving in the army, and some feel that there may have been some Germanic tribal influence here even before then (particularly in the east of England where I am from.) In eastern Scotland it's now believed that Nordic influence in some parts (particularly the east once again) may actually predate Celtic Gaelic influence.

Цитата

Wicca and Druidism are representatives of this culture, aren't they? And what is the difference between Wicca and Druidism?


I'm not an expert on either tradition really, so I've pulled this from the Druid Network website which might answer the question better than I can! :D

Цитата

What is the difference between Wicca and Druidry?

This is a complex question that many have spent a good deal of time on, for answers can vary according to the individual practice of those who are responding to the question. If someone has studied a great deal of Wicca before moving into Druidry, their Druidic practice may well reflect that.

The distinguishing features given here may appear generalisations and extremes, but they still hold some validity.

In Wicca, it is common to honour the goddess and her divine consort, while Druids tend to be more polytheistic and animistic. Deity is often acknowledged as most important in Wicca, together with anthropomorphised spirits or entities, while Druidry tends to honour the environment, spirits of place, and the ancestors first. Druidry is very much focused upon Britain and Ireland (with some finding its heritage within other European landscapes), its gods and mythologies being of these islands, while Wicca more readily works with gods from any tradition, land and culture.

Wicca often has a focus on creating change through spell working to improve lives, while the focus in Druidry is inspiration and creativity. In Wicca, the cardinal directions and four elements of earth, air, fire and water, are always key, while in Druidry these can be left out, the focus as often being upon the three worlds of earth, sea and sky.

Wiccan ritual groups (covens) tend to be closed, held in private, and are often fairly secretive; Druid ritual groups (groves) are usually open. Wicca is generally an initiatory tradition and formally taught whereas Druidry is more personal and experiential, its teachings openly accessible. Wiccan ritual is more often held indoors, while Druid ritual is usually held outside.


I know a lot of people have a blended Wiccan-Druidic path, so the above doesn't seem to be strictly held to by everyone. I was always under the impression that Druidry was a more heavily reconstructionist form of Celtic religion based on historical sources as far as possible, whilst Wicca is not necessarily restricted just to Celtic gods and lore, and incorporates more modern, eclectic influences. Hope that helps!

#6 Пользователь офлайн   Велизар

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Отправлено 22 Декабрь 2010 - 21:30

Просмотр сообщенияAelfgifu (21 декабря 2010 - 19:58):

Druidism (I never thought that there'd be people in Russia interested in this til you told me of your attraction to it!)

Well, some "computer mauglis" who play online games non-stop are quite informed as well, I guess. :)

#7 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 22 Декабрь 2010 - 23:39

Aelfgifu

Цитата

How are things in Russia for Pagans?

I can talk you in private. But in general the situation with the us was get unpleasant in Russia. First, our denomination has officially still not registered although the quantity of pagans is growing day by day...
However, today we have a small one beacon to a future, that our denomination will be registered at the state level. Anyway the whole point with heathery is not well at all. See my private massage.

Цитата

The mainstream media (such as the BBC) have lately been reporting on the Pagan scene in a much more balanced manner I'm pleased to say, with such as Radio programmes interviewing Heathen Police Officers etc (which happened just last saturday on BBC Radio 4's "Saturday Live").

Yep, we heard about it in Russ too ;-) Cause we'd got some Mass-media interviews about our current events at holidays we all celebrated every year, my friend. Once you should watch it ;-)

Цитата

You're quite right of course, the Celtic traditions are the oldest in most parts of these islands (maybe apart from the Pictish culture.) The Welsh IMO are the bearers of the pre-Roman, pre-English/Anglo-saxon cultural and linguistic legacy, though there are other Celtic cultural survivals to this day in places like Cornwall(which also retains its Celtic language though it is not commonly spoken these days.) The Anglo-saxons were here during Roman times as soldiers serving in the army, and some feel that there may have been some Germanic tribal influence here even before then (particularly in the east of England where I am from.) In eastern Scotland it's now believed that Nordic influence in some parts (particularly the east once again) may actually predate Celtic Gaelic influence.

I've always believed that Scotland is part of the 'Celtic people' of Britain. However, Northumberland went down in history as the stronghold of the Vikings. Or not?
So we can take a short summary. Wicca is a branch of witchcraft and magic. Druidism is a spiritual self-development and philosophical direction. Right so I always thought right, uhh :D
Was Merlin a druid? I'd read wonderful book of Monro named "21 lessons of Merlin". Did you?

Цитата

I know a lot of people have a blended Wiccan-Druidic path, so the above doesn't seem to be strictly held to by everyone. I was always under the impression that Druidry was a more heavily reconstructionist form of Celtic religion based on historical sources as far as possible, whilst Wicca is not necessarily restricted just to Celtic gods and lore, and incorporates more modern, eclectic influences. Hope that helps!


Can you describe any Wicca rituals in you native tradition, please?

#8 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 22 Декабрь 2010 - 23:41

Просмотр сообщенияВелизар (22 декабря 2010 - 21:30):

Well, some "computer mauglis" who play online games non-stop are quite informed as well, I guess. :)

Oh! Velisar admitted that he suffers from problem playin' gambling :P

#9 Пользователь офлайн   Велизар

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Отправлено 28 Декабрь 2010 - 11:41

Surely, we are modern Pagans. After finishing to jump over a fire we come home and get fun of scientific devices, such as computers, coffee makers or blenders. This is our hard job to explore the world in this way.....

#10 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 30 Декабрь 2010 - 03:20

Просмотр сообщенияВолк Бусый (22 декабря 2010 - 20:39):

Aelfgifu

I can talk you in private. But in general the situation with the us was get unpleasant in Russia. First, our denomination has officially still not registered although the quantity of pagans is growing day by day...
However, today we have a small one beacon to a future, that our denomination will be registered at the state level. Anyway the whole point with heathery is not well at all. See my private massage.


Yes thanks I got that (hope you got my reply!) I really hope that the state recognises that Rosnovery etc is a potent force with many adherents and has something positive to contribute to modern Russian life...


Цитата

I've always believed that Scotland is part of the 'Celtic people' of Britain.


Well this was always the assumption, but archeologists and geneticists are challenging this view now, at least as it applies to some areas. It seems that the people of some parts of Scotland have always been Norsemen, and any Gaelic influences are actually a later overlay on their culture and traditions.

Цитата

However, Northumberland went down in history as the stronghold of the Vikings. Or not?


Northumbria was initially created as a kingdom long before the official Viking Age which began around the 8th century. "Northanhymbre" ("land north of the Humber river" in old English)was originally founded by Anglian tribespeople from southern Scandinavia following the collapse of Roman power in the area during the 5th century. They succeeded in creating what was to become one of the most powerful kingdoms in Britain. The majority of the population, however, remained native British, suggesting that the Angles had not driven the natives out or "ethnically cleansed" them after Rome fell, but had simply taken over the aristocracy and succeeded in becoming the dominant cultural and linguistic influence. There's even a theory that we have always spoken a Germanic language around these parts and the very earliest settlers thousands of years ago were actually from what's now Denmark (modern northerners seem to be a lot keener on that idea anyway than the idea that we came from somewhere in the south LOL! :lol: )


Цитата

Was Merlin a druid? I'd read wonderful book of Monro named "21 lessons of Merlin". Did you?


I don't really know if Merlin was a Druid, but it seems to me that if he really did live as tales said he did, then he would have had a Druid-like role. I think the tales of Merlin probably do contain more than a little folk-memory of Druidry. I haven't read the 21 Lessons of Merlin, but have heard of the book.

Цитата

Can you describe any Wicca rituals in you native tradition, please?


Most Wiccan rituals are now considered to be modern and based around those of ceremonial magical organisations such as The Golden Dawn, and not really based on any ancient native tradition in these isles per se (even though ancient Celtic deities and spirits may be called upon by practitioners). However, Wicca has certainly become part of the modern spiritual landscape over here, and so it is in that sense a "native tradition" now, albeit a modern creation (for more about this see historian Ronald Hutton's "Triumph of the Moon", a scholarly treatise on the roots and development of Wicca). The following website contains the Book of Shadows of the "Gardnerian Tradition" of modern Wicca, which is apparently the oldest and describes their tools and rites etc - http://www.sacred-te...gbos/index.htm.

Some more hardcore Celtic Reconstructionists seem to have a bit of a problem with Wiccans labelling anything they do "Celtic" at all because the worldview and theology of actual ancient Celtic traditions and modern Wicca are very different from each other. However, my feeling is that had the Christian conversion never happened and we actually now had a living, unbroken Celtic Pagan tradition, then the worldview and theology would have evolved to become possibly quite different from the older models anyway, just as modern Hinduism is likely quite different from its ancient manifestations.

#11 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 03 Январь 2011 - 18:54

Aelfgifu

Yes thanks I got that (hope you got my reply!) I really hope that the state recognises that Rosnovery etc is a potent force with many adherents and has something positive to contribute to modern Russian life...
Make sure, my friend, Russians never surrender :lol:

Well this was always the assumption, but archeologists and geneticists are challenging this view now, at least as it applies to some areas. It seems that the people of some parts of Scotland have always been Norsemen, and any Gaelic influences are actually a later overlay on their culture and traditions.
Anyway the culture of Scotches is similar to common Irish|Celtic culture as their language. Can you post here some bright examples how are English and Scotch dialect different?

Northumbria was initially created as a kingdom long before the official Viking Age which began around the 8th century...There's even a theory that we have always spoken a Germanic language around these parts and the very earliest settlers thousands of years ago were actually from what's now Denmark (modern northerners seem to be a lot keener on that idea anyway than the idea that we came from somewhere in the south LOL! )
Really? Uh, and the Hadrian's Wall is the border of England and Northumbria, isn't it?

I haven't read the 21 Lessons of Merlin, but have heard of the book.
You better read this book, I guess you should like it. This book shows us how did England endured two different faiths. When the Romans have already left islands of Britain, but Christianity is still not. This is the background of the story about two of the most legendary men in English history - Arthur the King (very young) and Merlin (druid).

The following website contains the Book of Shadows of the "Gardnerian Tradition" of modern Wicca, which is apparently the oldest and describes their tools and rites etc - http://www.sacred-te...gbos/index.htm.
Oh, sorry, but this link is no more exist "The requested document was not found on this server."

So what's about you, Aelfgifu? How do you usually pray to Gods in home, in job and in the streets? I often go to my woods, make a fire and speak to it like I speak to alive human (I believe the fire is alive). Or try to understand what trees are thinkin'.

#12 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 03 Январь 2011 - 23:57

Цитата

Make sure, my friend, Russians never surrender :lol:


I'm glad to hear that! But of course we already know this - you lot are made of iron!

Цитата

Anyway the culture of Scotches is similar to common Irish|Celtic culture as their language.


In some areas, yes indeed (Scots and Irish Gaelic are quite similar, but then it is felt that some Scots were originally settlers from Ireland.) In other areas of Scotland there is an older thread of Norse culture evident.

Цитата

Can you post here some bright examples how are English and Scotch dialect different?


Well Scots Gaelic is still spoken in some areas. Here's a piece about it from Omniglot http://www.omniglot....ting/gaelic.htm

Цитата

Scottish Gaelic is spoken by about 60,000 people in Scotland (Alba), mainly in the Highlands (a' Ghaidhealtachd) and in the Western Isles (Na h-Eileanan an Iar), but also in Glasgow (Glaschu), Edinburgh (Dùn Eideann) and Inverness (Inbhir Nis). There are also small Gaelic-speaking communities in Canada, particularly in Nova Scotia (Alba Nuadh) and on Cape Breton Island (Eilean Cheap Breatainn). Other speakers can be found in Australia (Astràilia), New Zealand (Sealainn Nuadh) and the USA (Na Stàitean Aonaichte).


Most Scots speak a language similar to English though, and especially in the Lowlands there seems a lot of old English/Anglo-saxon linguistic influence, maybe due to early Anglian incursions under kings such as Edwin and also refugees flooding into the area around the years 1069/1070 when William of Normandy was carrying out his "harrying" of the people of northern England. "Lallans" [Lowlands] Scots contains many words you'll also hear in northern English dialect, such as "Bairn" (Anglo-saxon "child"), niht (pronounced "neet" - Anglo-saxon "night"). Here's an article explaining the often complex and convoluted history and influences on Scots dialect and language http://www.wordiq.co.../Scots_language

More history from Wikipedia:

Цитата

Northumbrian Old English had been established in southeastern Scotland as far as the River Forth by the seventh century.[19] It remained largely confined to this area until the thirteenth century, continuing in common use while Gaelic was the language of the Scottish court. The succeeding variety of Early northern Middle English spoken in southeastern Scotland, also known as Early Scots, began to diverge from that of Northumbria due to twelfth and thirteenth century immigration of Scandinavian-influenced Middle English-speakers from the North and Midlands of England.[20] Later influences on the development of Scots were from Romance languages via ecclesiastical and legal Latin, Norman[21] and later Parisian French due to the Auld Alliance as well as Dutch and Middle Low German influences due to trade and immigration from the low countries.[22] Scots also includes loan words resulting from contact with Gaelic. Early medieval legal documents include a body of Gaelic legal and administrative loans.[23] Contemporary Gaelic loans are mainly for geographical and cultural features, such as ceilidh, loch and clan.

From the thirteenth century Early Scots spread further into Scotland via the burghs, proto-urban institutions which were first established by King David I. The growth in prestige of Early Scots in the fourteenth century, and the complementary decline of French in Scotland, made Scots the prestige language of most of eastern Scotland. By the sixteenth century Middle Scots had established orthographic and literary norms largely independent of those developing in England.[24] From 1610 to the 1690s during the Plantation of Ulster large numbers of Scots-speaking Lowlanders, some 200,000, settled there.[25] In the core areas of Scots settlement, Scots outnumbered English settlers by five or six to one.[26] Modern Scots is used to describe the language after 1700 when southern Modern English was generally adopted as the literary language though Scots remained the vernacular.
Source

Цитата

Northumbria was initially created as a kingdom long before the official Viking Age which began around the 8th century...There's even a theory that we have always spoken a Germanic language around these parts and the very earliest settlers thousands of years ago were actually from what's now Denmark (modern northerners seem to be a lot keener on that idea anyway than the idea that we came from somewhere in the south LOL! )
Really? Uh, and the Hadrian's Wall is the border of England and Northumbria, isn't it?


Hadrian's wall is the border between England and Scotland roughly speaking, with Northumbria and Cumbria being the northernmost English counties (Northumbria lies to the east, Cumbria to the west). At one time there was fierce fighting between the border Scots and the Northumbrians, with all sorts of cattle-raiding, murder and mayhem going back and forth over the "wall". Apparently the Romans built Hadrian's Wall more as a customs check point, but it also had the intended purpose of preventing warfare between rival tribes in this area, suggesting that such fighting was simply a continuation of very ancient tribal rivalries! (The Wall failed to stop the fighting btw - tribesmen determined to carry on their feuds simply jumped into boats and rowed around it! :D ) Here's a bit of history http://www.englandsn...orderlands.html


Цитата

The following website contains the Book of Shadows of the "Gardnerian Tradition" of modern Wicca, which is apparently the oldest and describes their tools and rites etc - http://www.sacred-te...gbos/index.htm.
Oh, sorry, but this link is no more exist "The requested document was not found on this server."


Sorry about that - I'll try to find another site. Does this one work?

Цитата

So what's about you, Aelfgifu? How do you usually pray to Gods in home, in job and in the streets? I often go to my woods, make a fire and speak to it like I speak to alive human (I believe the fire is alive). Or try to understand what trees thinkin'.


My spirituality consists mainly of simple devotions at little altars I have both in and around my home dedicated to the gods, my ancestors, local land spirits etc. There is also a local oak tree that I go and sit under sometimes - I try to "talk" to him using my mind and am sure he answers! ;) I also make offerings there sometimes. Offerings usually consist of mead and also whatever nice food or sweets are available (I usually go with my inspiration on this). Milk is another popular offering for local land spirits. I pour it out over a little stone-pile altar (a "hearg" in old English)which is just next to my home.

I do pray to gods and ancestors regularly and believe that my consciousness can thus become connected to theirs. With practice in trance techniques etc, I believe that we can connect very closely to gods, ancestors and spirits of the land, trees, plants etc, to the benefit of our communities. Ultimately I believe we are all connected somehow to everything else in nature, not only by obvious physical interdependency, but also unseen, subtle links (? by "threads of Wyrd" which have an actual energetic reality we don't know about fully yet - Anglo-saxon lore speaks often of weaving symbolism in connection to the goddess Wyrd, who was said to be strongest of all the powers.) Maybe the only real barriers between the seen and unseen worlds are the ones in our own heads! I'd say that I'm fundamentally an animist, and also believe that such as fire is alive, there are Elves living in water and that animals have a "soul" or consciousness which survives death, as I believe that we do also (though I think the Heathen concept of "soul" is different to the Christian one - when we die I don't believe that "heaven" is far away beyond this world, but is all around us, interpenetrating the fabric of the land. The ancestors stay close!)

Phew - i realise that my posts are likely a bit too long sometimes LOL! :lol:

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Отправлено 09 Январь 2011 - 04:24

I'm glad to hear that! But of course we already know this - you lot are made of iron!
Iron? ))) it often rusts. The steel! :lol: Anyway it was in USSR. Nowadays the present time gives us all common "values" - individualism and self-interest. These qualities destroy whole Empires and strongholds.

By the way, don;t you know about genetic different between Celts and Englishmen? Where are your roots in general?

Sorry about that - I'll try to find another site. Does this one work?
Oh, sure! Thank you.

#14 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 09 Январь 2011 - 08:59

Просмотр сообщенияВолк Бусый (09 января 2011 - 01:24):

I'm glad to hear that! But of course we already know this - you lot are made of iron!
Iron? ))) it often rusts. The steel! :lol:


Yes, steel, that's what I meant!:lol:

Цитата

Anyway it was in USSR. Nowadays the present time gives us all common "values" - individualism and self-interest. These qualities destroy whole Empires and strongholds.


So society has swung the other way in Russia - towards too much individualism and selfishness? That's sad - I hope there is more of a balance soon! There is a thread of a "culture of indifference" here in the UK, where youngsters don't care for others at all, don't respect others' property or community values. Being a gangster is seen as more "cool" than being a good citizen, and so a lot of young people end up on the wrong side of the tracks. There are good kids too though, but it's hard for them if they live in a rough area where there's a lot of bad behaviour....

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By the way, don;t you know about genetic different between Celts and Englishmen? Where are your roots in general?


The majority of people in Britain have the same basic genetic blueprint according to the latest studies (ref."Origins if the British" by Oppenheimer), and have the same DNA as people who've been here since the Neolithic (and probably beyond). However, we have different cultural influences, dialects, languages etc, which reinforces the idea that DNA does not always predict cultural affiliation. Here in England, for example, most of us are no different genetically to the people of Wales, but our culture and language are different, with the roots of our culture and language being rooted firmly in the Anglo-saxon period (ie this has been the strongest and most enduring cultural influence in this part of Britain). Thus I consider my roots to be Anglo-saxon, because this is the culture I grew up in, the language I speak (even the village I grew up in has an Anglo-saxon name!) I don't consider myself Celtic at all, even though I probably share DNA with Celtic people in these islands. We share Iberian Celtic DNA with people of Spain too, but I don't consider myself Spanish - do you see what I mean? ;)

#15 Пользователь офлайн   Волк Бусый

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Отправлено 12 Январь 2011 - 03:35

Being a gangster is seen as more "cool" than being a good citizen, and so a lot of young people end up on the wrong side of the tracks. There are good kids too though, but it's hard for them if they live in a rough area where there's a lot of bad behaviour....
Uh, it's a whole Europe problem and in Russia too. Youngsters choose the path easy, but dangerous. When a person loses control over himself, then he becomes a nonentity. He becomes dependent on alcohol, nicotine, drugs. All this happens because the license ranked in their heads - universal permissiveness, lack of restrictions.

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We share Iberian Celtic DNA with people of Spain too, but I don't consider myself Spanish - do you see what I mean?

He-he :) nope. I mean about those folks who sit in every Englishman. So there are exact borders over the Britain where the Anglo-saxons live, the Scots live and Welsh so on. Irish with R1b haplogroup of Y-chromosome are one of the most "clean" Celts (over the 90%). And you mean that these borders of folk living shows us how the DNA-differences of these folks are still existed, right? :)

#16 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 12 Январь 2011 - 23:26

Просмотр сообщенияВолк Бусый (12 января 2011 - 00:35):

He-he :) nope. I mean about those folks who sit in every Englishman.


What do you mean the "folks who sit in every Englishman"? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this - do you mean an Englishman's ancestors? Most Englishmen's ancestors are pretty much the same as those of the Welsh and the majority of Scots, but it doesn't mean to say that we're all the same culturally. Remember that ancient Britain was more like a continent with many small tribal nations in it (many of whom were constantly at war with each other) rather than any sort of cohesive or culturally homogenous nation with a common identity. The nearest we ever came to such was the Boudiccan rebellion during Roman times, which was comprised of an alliance of a relatively small number of tribes in a particular region. There's never, ever been a "common British identity", even though we share common DNA. I suppose we "all came together" as Britons during times such as WW2, but nobody was under any pretenses that we were all the same - we were still Scottish, Welsh, English Britons if you know what I mean, we were just fighting for a common cause.

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So there are exact borders over the Britain where the Anglo-saxons live, the Scots live and Welsh so on. Irish with R1b haplogroup of Y-chromosome are one of the most "clean" Celts (over the 90%). And you mean that these borders of folk living shows us how the DNA-differences of these folks are still existed, right? :)


What I mean is that the DNA of about 90+% of the people of Britain is exactly the same, wether they consider themselves Scots, Welsh or English. There are no major DNA differences to speak of in the different regions if you take Britain as a whole. The point is that our cultural and linguistic affiliation, the borders between England, Scotland and Wales, are not defined by any differing genetic ancestry as much as prevailing historical influences. Quite how things ended up this way is still all being worked out by historians, archeologists and geneticists. For example, why do the people of Cornwall still self-identify as Celts and have a Celtic language in living memory when the rest of England doesn't, even though we're pretty much the same genetically? One theory is that the people of Eastern England were more likely Belgae (ie Germano-Celts from northern Gaul)who may have always spoken a Germanic-type language similar to old English, so they would show different cultural and linguistic survivals, and the people of the west of Britain were more like "pure Celts". Both the "pure Celts" of the west and the Belgae of the east would have very distant pre-historic genetic roots in the Iberian peninsula, but when they migrated from there many thousands of years ago the tribal groups separated - one migrated to Britain probably very early, the other settled first in northern Gaul/Belgium and became culturally and linguistically quite Germanicized. Eventually these Belgae would migrate to Britain (again, thousands of years ago) and meet up with their older tribal "relations", though now they would have more differences. So when the small percentage of Anglo-saxons come with the Roman army, and then in larger numbers after the Roman Empire collapses, they are coming to a land where many people already speak some sort of Germanic language and have some Germanic traits, especially in the east.

These differences between people in different parts of the island of Britain survive to puzzle scholars to the modern day - whenever we see debates on this in the media or in forums over here there's often a big argument LOL! (probably because the evidence still isn't completely clear, and there are people at both ends of the political spectrum who want to fit that evidence to suit their own agendas) Actually it's been the same throughout the ages, with the legends of either the Celtic Arthur or the Germanic Hengist and Horsa being wheeled out to suit the prevailing "winds" of the time and the motives of the person or group employing them. The Arthur legends, for example, were employed by William I of Normandy to assist in the erosion of the Anglo-saxon culture he wanted to obliterate, whilst the Hengist and Horsa myth probably comes back into fashion again by the time of Chaucer in the 13th century, when all things Anglo-saxon become respectable again. Hengist and Horsa went out of fashion again after WW2, because many people were put off by all things Germanic for a while (no offense to our German friends - that's all in the past now! :) ), but they seem to be coming back in again now, probably in equal measure with Arthur's legend, though now many Welsh and Cornish people, perhaps understandably, seem to have co-opted him as more righfully "theirs", and so the debate goes on ...

As you may be able to tell, I'm from the Hengist and Horsa camp, but have nothing against those who want to follow the Arthurian path if that's what they like (particularly if they're in the West Country or Wales.)

#17 Пользователь офлайн   Aelfgifu

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Отправлено 12 Январь 2011 - 23:52

I've just been reading a wiki article on latest genetic research in Britain, and it seems to have become even more complicated LOL! The "we all come from Iberia originally" theory seems to now be in question:-

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Haplogroup R1b is dominant in Western Europe, not only Britain and Ireland. While it was once seen as a lineage connecting the British Isles to Iberia (where it is also common) opinions concerning its origins have changed, with estimates of age tending to go down from Palaeolithic to Neolithic or even younger and analysis of the branching within this line now being seen to support the view that at least concerning the majority of R1b in Europe, it has its roots in the Middle East and has spread northwestward from there. The R1b types found in Britain and Ireland are dominated by R-P312, which on the continent is found mainly west of the Rhine but at least in England there is also a significant presence of R-U106, which is found east of the Rhine and also in North Sea areas such as Denmark and Holland


Here's the original article http://en.wikipedia....e_British_Isles
I think, from what that article says, the folk from around my way may have come originally from over the north sea from Denmark and Holland, because our culture and language are so similar. Apparently our dialect here in the north east of England is very similar to that of people in Jutland in Denmark - we have many of the same words and pronounce them in exactly the same way. This latest evidence might explain that..(ho hum - the plot thickens! :D )

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